| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Poll: When working on texts in languages with gendered nouns/pronouns,how do you handle gender neutrality? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 20:43
French to English
I use gender-neutral language wherever necessary. I don't understand why that wasn't available as an option?
So for example the French "PDG" is the "Chair and CEO", not the Chairman, even if it is a man.
I had to translate documentation, signs and panels for an exhibition on LGBT+ history at a major Paris museum recently and was asked to be very careful with pronouns and terminology. I reassured the Project Manager that I always was.
After the first translation for th... See more I use gender-neutral language wherever necessary. I don't understand why that wasn't available as an option?
So for example the French "PDG" is the "Chair and CEO", not the Chairman, even if it is a man.
I had to translate documentation, signs and panels for an exhibition on LGBT+ history at a major Paris museum recently and was asked to be very careful with pronouns and terminology. I reassured the Project Manager that I always was.
After the first translation for this exhibition, the PM came back telling me the curator was delighted and wanted me to translate all documentation for the exhibition. After years of trying to educate clients and often failing to get my message across, I was chuffed.
One example of not managing to educate a client: I tried using "they" in a survey app about recruiting. The client insisted on "he/she" and actually told me "I don't care if that excludes trans people". I just sighed, feeling that it wasn't worth explaining that only non-binary people would feel excluded, rather than trans, since trans people will happily use the pronouns relative to the gender they identify as.
Yes I had explained that "they" had been used as a neutral pronoun for hundreds of years. I had the distinct impression the client wanted to exclude trans people.
The French still put "H/F" (meaning they will accept both men and women) in job adverts. I have systematically left that off in English, telling the client that it goes without saying in English, that actually saying it would be like a red flag, like they're trying to prove that they don't discriminate, then it's not their fault that the best candidate always somehow ends up being a man.
But I did recently see "H/F/Autre" (men women and others) so I suppose there's some progress?
[Edited at 2024-03-06 13:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lorenzo Meloni wrote:
Italian here, and it can be tough. :'D
When addressing users/people, I always use an inclusive and gender-neutral language,
Italian here, I am curious to know how it is possible we have only LORO as gender neutral. Our language is based on gender, like French we have no neutral no IT.
How can you translate for example "candidates were all under 24" .
Many thanks
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 20:43
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Angie Garbarino wrote:
How can you translate for example "candidates were all under 24" .
Many thanks
"tutte le persone candidate avevano meno di 24 anni" (but of course this does not always work)
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Kay Denney wrote:
I use gender-neutral language wherever necessary. I don't understand why that wasn't available as an option?
So for example the French "PDG" is the "Chair and CEO", not the Chairman, even if it is a man.
I noticed there didn't seem to be an 'always' option too
I guess we're lucky, that it's quite easy for us English speakers, it's only really pronouns we have to worry about, and a handful of words as per your example above (which is what I always use as well).
I see the gymnastics performed in French to be gender neutral (e.g. devising words such as relectaire to avoid "relecteur ou relectrice" constructions or the addition of .e) & feel quite fortunate to be anglophone
Worth noting, as I've pointed out to a few people over time, that the formal T&C for the purchase of tickets for the 2012 London Olympics (my, what happy times in retrospect, before folk even dreamed of getting belligerant about "woke nonsense") used they, their, etc. in a singular sense and if it was good enough for them (!), it's good enough for me.
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IrinaN
United States
Local time: 13:43
English to Russian
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Every US civil servant, the originator of any distributed document, must state name, title, department and a pronoun to be used when addressing h/h/t.
I'm having bigger problem with the speedy simo interpretation. We used to have manned and unmanned space flights. Now it's crewed and uncrewed so each time I'm about to be hit with it, I worry more about a slip of a tongue than a piece of information I must deliver.... See more Every US civil servant, the originator of any distributed document, must state name, title, department and a pronoun to be used when addressing h/h/t.
I'm having bigger problem with the speedy simo interpretation. We used to have manned and unmanned space flights. Now it's crewed and uncrewed so each time I'm about to be hit with it, I worry more about a slip of a tongue than a piece of information I must deliver.
Russia woke up in the last century, calling it "piloted" and "non-piloted" since the dawn of times. Not to mention first woman in space. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Horrible (in my opinion) | Mar 6 |
Zea_Mays wrote: Angie Garbarino wrote:
How can you translate for example "candidates were all under 24" .
Many thanks
"tutte le persone candidate avevano meno di 24 anni" (but of course this does not always work)
But ok, if needed we will use PERSONE everywhere.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:43
French to English
Charlie Bavington wrote: I see the gymnastics performed in French to be gender neutral (e.g. devising words such as relectaire to avoid "relecteur ou relectrice" constructions or the addition of .e) & feel quite fortunate to be anglophone
Yes, while I feel that efforts definitely should be made to make French more inclusive and less macho, I can't help but agree that the way they're going about it adds layer upon layer of complexity to an already way-too-complex language.
In English we tend to erase the feminine version of words, (Meryl Streep would get in a right strop if you called her an actress, a word that reeks of flooziness, rather than the far more serious actor) whereas the French are REintroducing feminine versions, even if they prefer the less obviously feminine auteure to the previous banned autrice.
Then again, the one time they wanted to simplify matters by getting rid of the sexist, condescending "Mademoiselle", nobody liked that either. So you can't win!
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I remember well all the fuss made when, in 1979, Maria de Lurdes Pintasilgo (Portugal's sole female Prime Minister so far) was appointed Prime Minister. By then, there was no feminine gender for the word "minister" in Portuguese. When the argument broke out, with people saying that a woman "minister" should be called “ministra” (the feminine form), instead of “ministro” (the masculine form) most of the population was outraged. The term "primeira-ministra” (the feminine of prime ministe... See more I remember well all the fuss made when, in 1979, Maria de Lurdes Pintasilgo (Portugal's sole female Prime Minister so far) was appointed Prime Minister. By then, there was no feminine gender for the word "minister" in Portuguese. When the argument broke out, with people saying that a woman "minister" should be called “ministra” (the feminine form), instead of “ministro” (the masculine form) most of the population was outraged. The term "primeira-ministra” (the feminine of prime minister) was one of the biggest linguistic aberrations these people could imagine. Men (and many women) sneered and jeered. It was thought preferable to say "a primeiro ministro" (the in the feminine form + primeiro-ministro in the masculine form). Things have evolved since then… ▲ Collapse
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| I skip titles these days | Mar 6 |
Kay Denney wrote:
Then again, the one time they wanted to simplify matters by getting rid of the sexist, condescending "Mademoiselle", nobody liked that either. So you can't win!
Agreed again. Actually, after a period of coverting/translating titles (M. -> Mr. etc.) then deciding that was rubbish because they are, after all (usually) foreign folk so why not keep the foreign title, nowadays if I have the full name, I often don't bother with titles at all if they're just M/Mme.
Still annoys me a bit when you do a contract, say, and there's a space for a name, e.g. "represented by its CEO, xxxxx" and the space is preceded by an "M." as if the CEO can only be a bloke. Sometimes our gallic chums are still a little behind the times
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Royal Spanish Academy dismisses movement to make Spanish more gender-inclusive
When it comes to gender-inclusive language, though, the Royal Spanish Academy says the form is “artificial and unnecessary” because the masculine-plural already encompasses all genders. Rosalía Vázquez, a copy editor in Ecuador, says grammatically spea... See more Royal Spanish Academy dismisses movement to make Spanish more gender-inclusive
When it comes to gender-inclusive language, though, the Royal Spanish Academy says the form is “artificial and unnecessary” because the masculine-plural already encompasses all genders. Rosalía Vázquez, a copy editor in Ecuador, says grammatically speaking, the academy is correct.
https://theworld.org/stories/2020-12-21/royal-spanish-academy-dismisses-movement-make-spanish-more-gender-inclusive
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Argentina’s Milei bans gender-inclusive language in official documents
Argentina’s President Javier Milei has banned gender-inclusive language in all official documents and public administration, the presidential spokesperson said Tuesday, as the far-right libertarian continues to implement his socially conservative agenda.
The ban, effective immediately, will prohibit “inclusive language and everything related to the gender perspective throughout the national public administration...
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/27/americas/argentina-milei-bans-gender-inclusive-language-intl-latam/index.html
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A few weeks ago a very feminist woman here in El Salvador in a TV interview kept using masculine and feminine forms when the masculine would have been enough (masculine on the left, feminine on the right):
Los médicos - Las médicas (The physicians)
Los discapacitados - Las discapacitadas (The disabled)
Los maestros - Las maestras (The teachers)
Los trabajadores - Las trabajadoras (The workers)
Los campesinos - Las campesinas (The farmers)
This is beyond ridiculous! ▲ Collapse
| | | | ronsmith
Brazil
Member (2012)
Japanese to Portuguese
+ ...
| Inserting a feminine word to avoid a masculine plural doesn't always work | Mar 7 |
Zea_Mays wrote: Angie Garbarino wrote:
How can you translate for example "candidates were all under 24" .
Many thanks
"tutte le persone candidate avevano meno di 24 anni" (but of course this does not always work)
What if the candidates were dogs or parrots?
| | | | ronsmith
Brazil
Member (2012)
Japanese to Portuguese
+ ...
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
I remember well all the fuss made when, in 1979, Maria de Lurdes Pintasilgo (Portugal's sole female Prime Minister so far) was appointed Prime Minister. By then, there was no feminine gender for the word "minister" in Portuguese. When the argument broke out, with people saying that a woman "minister" should be called “ministra” (the feminine form), instead of “ministro” (the masculine form) most of the population was outraged. The term "primeira-ministra” (the feminine of prime minister) was one of the biggest linguistic aberrations these people could imagine. Men (and many women) sneered and jeered. It was thought preferable to say "a primeiro ministro" (the in the feminine form + primeiro-ministro in the masculine form). Things have evolved since then…
That's a curious fact. In Brazil, I don't think we ever had any problem with Margaret Thatcher being “primeira-ministra da Inglaterra” since 1975. In 1982, we had our first "ministra de estado" in Brazil, without any controversy.
In 2011, however, we had our first woman to become President, and for some reason that was controversial. A few people, including herself, preferred “presidenta”, but the majority of people, including most of the press, insisted on calling her “presidente”, probably because it rhymes with “cliente” and “residente”.
Personally, I believe that there is a female form, and it's “presidenta”. Just because “elefante” rhymes with “estudante”, doesn't mean that there aren't “elefantas” or that there are “estudantas”.
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A workaround I often use is to recast the phrase in the plural, which works in a large percentage of cases and renders the issue moot in English.
Otherwise, the non-specific singular they/their is fine. If it was good enough for Jane Austen, it's good enough for me.
https://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html
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I have the problem every now and again as I translate in English-Persian pair. This is a problem that is mutually common in both ways in this pair of language. In every case I may adopt a certain technique to disambiguate the issue, like providing the alternative form she/he or using plural "they" when intending to avoid a gendered-oriented approach.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 20:43
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
ronsmith wrote: Zea_Mays wrote:
"tutte le persone candidate avevano meno di 24 anni" (but of course this does not always work) What if the candidates were dogs or parrots?
I am not aware of a discussion on gender neutrality related to animals, plants or things.
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