The word 'foresee' in regulations and agreements Thread poster: Hlaskover
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Hlaskover
Local time: 13:31
English to Polish
Hello everybody, I need some quick (probably) help.
I'm an English-Polish translator and in Polish we have this word 'przewidywac', which means 'to foresee', but is also used in agreements and legal acts in the sense of 'to stipulate, provide' ('as provided in the agreement' etc.).
So it's a common mistake (I thought) that some beginners use 'foresee' in relevant cases, like 'the contract foresees that money shall be paid' or 'as foreseen by the Act'. I've always though... See more Hello everybody, I need some quick (probably) help.
I'm an English-Polish translator and in Polish we have this word 'przewidywac', which means 'to foresee', but is also used in agreements and legal acts in the sense of 'to stipulate, provide' ('as provided in the agreement' etc.).
So it's a common mistake (I thought) that some beginners use 'foresee' in relevant cases, like 'the contract foresees that money shall be paid' or 'as foreseen by the Act'. I've always thought it's a big mistake and a 'false friend', but recently I've noticed it in reputable 'official' translations, like 'Polish Criminal Code' etc...
So I got confused... I'm sure that the word 'to foresee' in English is restricted to the meaning 'to predict, expect'. There are some Google hits for 'the Act foresees', but they don't come from native-English sites.
Could some native speaker settle this for me? Can you say 'the penalty foreseen for the offence in this Code' or 'this Act foresees that (something shall be done)'?
Sorry if the question is stupid, I was positive this is bad translation, but now I'm seriously confused...
Thanks in advance. ▲ Collapse
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 07:31
Russian to English
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| This is indeed a bad translation | Jan 31, 2013 |
And your original take on this was correct. No one uses foresee in the meaning of stipulate in legal English, and you shouldn't either.
Take your official translations with a huge - and I mean HUGE - grain of salt. In my pair, I wouldn't touch those "official" translations of Russian regulations with a ten foot pole. And don't even get me started on the Russian translations of that UN drivel.
| | | | Tim Drayton 
Cyprus
Local time: 14:31
Turkish to English
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I think 'envisage' may be the word you are looking for.
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Tim Drayton wrote:
I think 'envisage' may be the word you are looking for.
I agree. "Envisage" is the word I'd use in your context. "Le contrat prévoit que ..." = "the contract envisages that ...".
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David Wright
Austria
Local time: 13:31
German to English
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I think I'd prefer "lay down" or "provide" - envisage doesn't sound definitive enough - these are things that the parties are required by the contract to do. Envisages sounds more like "we hope it will happen". But maybe I'm wrong. Comments, anyone?
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 13:31
Spanish to English
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| Provides for | Jan 31, 2013 |
I wouldn't use envisage either, provide for or laid down is what I would use too.
"Set out" is another.
[Editado a las 2013-01-31 08:44 GMT]
| | | | Vincenzo Di Maso
Portugal
Local time: 12:31
Member (2009)
English to Italian
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| verbs I prefer | Jan 31, 2013 |
lay down, provide for, set forth
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:31
Hebrew to English
| Not wrong, I agree David | Jan 31, 2013 |
David Wright wrote:
I think I'd prefer "lay down" or "provide" - envisage doesn't sound definitive enough - these are things that the parties are required by the contract to do. Envisages sounds more like "we hope it will happen". But maybe I'm wrong. Comments, anyone?
I can't speak for Polish, but in English saying:
'the contract foresees that money shall be paid' (or any of its synonyms or near-synonyms: envisage, expects,..etc)
...has a very different meaning than:
'the contract stipulates that money shall be paid' (or any of its synonyms or near-synonyms: provide, laid down, set forth etc.).
Legally speaking, the former usage (using 'foresee') could provide a get-out clause as it could be interpreted, as David has already pointed out, as "it's hoped/expected this will happen" rather than "this contract is ensuring it WILL happen". The latter usage (using 'stipulate) doesn't allow room for doubt in this regard.
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Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 14:31
Turkish to English
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As the following example shows, the term 'envisage' is used in English legal discourse:
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011CSOH64.html
“[44] I now turn to the second part of this question, namely whether the provision in clause 27(ii) which provides that associated financing charges shall not be subject to award is compliant with sect... See more As the following example shows, the term 'envisage' is used in English legal discourse:
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2011CSOH64.html
“[44] I now turn to the second part of this question, namely whether the provision in clause 27(ii) which provides that associated financing charges shall not be subject to award is compliant with section 108 of the Act. On this point I consider that the pursuers' submissions are well founded. There is no express exclusion of the right to claim financing charges elsewhere in the contract. Indeed, clause 2(iii) of Part 3 of the contract envisages the possibility of a claim by the Sub-Contractor for an extension of time or for any additional payment or for expense occasioned by or consequent upon any such delay, provided that notice specifying the reason for the delay is timeously given in accordance with the contractual provisions. The contract provides for the recovery of loss and expense, and financing charges are recoverable as a head of damages (F G Minter Ltd v Welsh Health Technical Services Organisation; Ogilvie Buildings Ltd v City of Glasgow District Council). In any event, I am of opinion that the recovery of financing charges falls within the first branch of the rule in Hadley v Baxendale.”
As to whether it is used synonymously with 'provide for', or whether there is a subtle difference in meaning, is another question. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Hlaskover
Local time: 13:31
English to Polish
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks guys, this is exactly what I was looking for!
@ The Misha - I don't get it how sworn translators at reputable publishing houses can make such high school mistakes. And this is just one example of bad, literal translations I've noticed. The exam for sworn translators (which I'm taking very soon) is supposed to be a big deal. I don't understand how people make it through such a sieve, then peer review... Oh, well.
@ Tim Drayton and others - I heard the word 'envisa... See more Thanks guys, this is exactly what I was looking for!
@ The Misha - I don't get it how sworn translators at reputable publishing houses can make such high school mistakes. And this is just one example of bad, literal translations I've noticed. The exam for sworn translators (which I'm taking very soon) is supposed to be a big deal. I don't understand how people make it through such a sieve, then peer review... Oh, well.
@ Tim Drayton and others - I heard the word 'envisage' but was wary about using it. I imagine it can be used for 'consequences' of a given document - 'the treaty envisages closer political union', 'the act envisages creating new law enforcement agencies', so not exactly the synonim of 'to stipulate'. Then again, I'm not a native English speaker. Comments, please?
Also, is there a difference between 'to provide' and 'to provide for' in the context of 'stipulating' things? I thought that 'provide for' is used for what the text in question is about in general - 'this Document provides for Terms and Conditions of delivery', 'this Act provides for new regulations for financial institutions'. Am I right here or is it just overthinking and they are synonims? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 05:31
Dutch to English
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In your example:
"clause 2(iii) of Part 3 of the contract envisages the possibility of a claim by the Sub-Contractor for an extension of time or for any additional payment or for expense occasioned by or consequent upon any such delay, provided that notice specifying the reason for the delay is timeously given in accordance with the contractual provisions."
'envisages the possibility' really does mean 'foresees the possibility'. But in the rest of that text you find 'th... See more In your example:
"clause 2(iii) of Part 3 of the contract envisages the possibility of a claim by the Sub-Contractor for an extension of time or for any additional payment or for expense occasioned by or consequent upon any such delay, provided that notice specifying the reason for the delay is timeously given in accordance with the contractual provisions."
'envisages the possibility' really does mean 'foresees the possibility'. But in the rest of that text you find 'the contract provides for'. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | provides, lays down, sets out, establishes | Feb 4, 2013 |
In the legal English used in the UK (in particular in England and Wales), in my experience, the verbs used most commonly in legislation, case-law and contracts in the context of creating a framework of rules are
provides, lays down, sets out, establishes
Hence, I agree with Tina, David, Vicenzo, Tim and Tatty (hope I've got everyone).
I tend not to use "stipulates". This is much less common.
I also agree that "envisages" could be read as aspira... See more In the legal English used in the UK (in particular in England and Wales), in my experience, the verbs used most commonly in legislation, case-law and contracts in the context of creating a framework of rules are
provides, lays down, sets out, establishes
Hence, I agree with Tina, David, Vicenzo, Tim and Tatty (hope I've got everyone).
I tend not to use "stipulates". This is much less common.
I also agree that "envisages" could be read as aspirational and not constitutive.
HTH Paul ▲ Collapse
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Hlaskover
Local time: 13:31
English to Polish
TOPIC STARTER | Is US legalese different in this matter? | Feb 7, 2013 |
Paul Skidmore wrote:
In the legal English used in the UK (in particular in England and Wales), in my experience, the verbs used most commonly in legislation, case-law and contracts in the context of creating a framework of rules are
provides, lays down, sets out, establishes
I tend not to use "stipulates". This is much less common.
HTH Paul
Thanks, this summary helps a lot. Any particular reason not to assume that the same goes for the US?
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