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Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

carro

Croatian translation:

kar (carro)

Added to glossary by Darko Kolega
May 6, 2010 05:40
14 yrs ago
English term

carro

English to Croatian Art/Literary History help with sentencte
I'm translating a text about Dubrovnik from English to Catalan. The original was written in Croat.
I have problems with one sentence. Maybe it's a mistranslation from Croat. Could you tell me what "carros" refers to?
__
From 1570 till 1585 the Republic had 180 to 200 ships ***from 10 to 1.100 carros and the total displacement of 36.000 carros***.

I don't speak Croat.

Thanks
Proposed translations (Croatian)
5 +2 kar (carro)
5 ton
4 +1 carro
2 dubrovačka "kara" (Dubrovnik "cart")
References
dubrovačka "kara"
Change log

May 12, 2010 07:54: Darko Kolega Created KOG entry

Discussion

drazenborcic May 6, 2010:
ref A reference found at "srce" (croatian university IT center).
Jedna referenca, nađena na Srcu.
hrcak.srce.hr/file/29014

Of course, it can be translated as "carts" which would not indicate the quantity. The volume of 2000 liters is roughly equivalent to 1.5 t of wheat (the exact value would probably fit somewhere between 1.4 and 1.5, but the wheat cultivated before 20th century was small-grained, high-protein, lo starch, so the specific weight was certainly somewhat higher).
bonafide1313 May 6, 2010:
well, looking into history texts we can't be sure whether the english "carro" was a mistranslation or sort of miscalculation from croatian or not... the figures as to the total number of ships in the period are pretty much the same, but the capacity is obviously measured differently in different sources... i'm only pretty convinced that the croatian text used the word "kar" or "kara" (which in the dialect denotes a "cart" , or "kola" in the standard language)... anyway, hopefully the colleague has now enough information to start digging up in Catalan :))
Darko Kolega May 6, 2010:
ma nije bitan ovaj pitalac koliko naše obrazovanje i širenje vidika; a što će on izabrati i napisati, to je njegova stvar; glavno da punimo glosar i nakupljamo reference.... Proz-drav!
Mira Stepanovic May 6, 2010:
If I understand well the point here is that the Asker is translating the text from English to Catalan where the original (English) was translated from Croatian and he/she needed to check if 'carro' was a mistranslation from Croatian to English. Well, it is not since I found 'carro' in an English source text, and that is what is important IMO. :)
Darko Kolega May 6, 2010:
my suggestion is "kar" with additional explanation or footnote at the first apperiance of term "carro"
(1 kar equals size/volume/capacity of 2000 l) or something like that..... it's up to you....
bonafide1313 May 6, 2010:
or it could be a measure of weight 1 kara = 2/3 of a ton
bonafide1313 May 6, 2010:
would something like "carts" fit into your context? "carro" for sure isn't a croatian word, but, in dubrovnik they'd say "kar" for a cart...

Proposed translations

+2
51 mins
Selected

kar (carro)

stara jedinica za obujam; oko 2000 l, koristila se za
a) sol
b) obujam korisnog brodskog prostora

izvor: Hrvatski enciklopedijski rječnik Novi Liber

English explanation: old capacity (size, volume) measurement for aprox. 2000 litres; used for:
a) salt
b) capacity of usable cargo space (area) of ship

reference: Croatian Encyclopedian Dictionary, Novi Liber, 2002
Peer comment(s):
agree bonafide1313 : koliko je mogla ponit jedna kara biće, ili jedan kar, eheheh antica misura di volume, usata con valore diverso in varie regioni italiane; corrisponde alla capacità di un carro: due carra di fieno ... i kod talijana slično
10 mins
a da nije karijola? ihihihi
agree alz : ancora 20 anni indietro era usuale riferirsi al peso di 10 tonnellate come ad un vagone. Dunque un carro a traino del '500 divento' (crebbe) un carro ferroviario :-)
15 hrs
grazie + buon giorno
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you!"
33 mins

ton

1 carro equals 1.5 tons. Carro is actually a carriage and the unit was used for wheat and cereals, so it can be transformed into bushels, but only if one knows what the cargo content was (specific weight of various cereals can differ significantly). Multiplying by 1.5 and expressing the load in tons is probably the best practice.

I'll try to find a reference and post it later.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Darko Kolega : bez reference mi zvuči prilično neuvjerljivo i komplicirano; mada jadni onda isu imali bolje mjerne instrumente
19 mins
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1 hr

dubrovačka "kara" (Dubrovnik "cart")


.... my guess is that, if the text is written in Croatian, the figure of 36000 might refer to specific "Dubrovnik carts", a unit of weight of approx. 2/3 of a ton ...
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+1
33 mins

carro

It is a medieval unit of measure - deadweight tonnage (or deadweight carrying capacity) for ships:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org....
Converting to deadweight tonnage measures we may call the carro equal ...
It is explained here:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2593003
unfortunately it is not free. :(

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ETF&r...
Mjera carro inače se rabi za mjerenje žita, te 1 carro teži 1,5 tonu...
hrcak.srce.hr/file/29014

Hope this helps.

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Note added at 53 mins (2010-05-06 06:34:09 GMT)
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Sorry, the link is not working, please paste it into your browser;
The sentence in Croatian means:
The measure carro is used for weighing wheat where 1 carro weighs 1.5 tons.

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Note added at 1 hr (2010-05-06 07:14:37 GMT)
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Here is an explanation in Italian, might be helpful to you:
http://lnx.collesalario.it/agerola/index.php?option=com_cont...
Carro: Misura utilizzata per stimare le dimensioni di una nave o di un carico navale, nel Regno delle due Sicilie valeva 36 tomoli (pari a circa 1990 litri).
It comes under ANTICHE UNITA’ DI MISURA E MONETE, UNITA’ DI VOLUME i.e. units of volume.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-05-06 08:42:46 GMT)
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BTW, the definition of 'carro' means:
Measure used to estimate the dimensions of a ship or the ship's deadweight in the Kingdom of The Two Sicilies and it weighted 36 tomolos ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomolo ) (equal to approximately 1990 litres).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Darko Kolega : to je zastarjela mjera za obujam (ne prvenstveno za težinu), jer je u pitanju iskoristivi prostor teretnog broda; bar mi tako kažu enciklopedije; pogotovo ako je tema o prošlosti, onda treba uzeti u obzir ondašnju mjeru, a ne današnju
21 mins
Hvala, u datom kontekstu se govori o nosivosti brodova, a to se konvertuje u tone, v. linkove, bitno je da je naziv te mere 'carro' za šta sam našla potvrde, ovde se traži prevod, zar ne?
agree alz : the official language of trade (or better: lingua franca) in Adriatic and Ionian area from middle age up to the end of XIX century was Italian (Venetian). I would leave it as "carro" too.
1 day 1 hr
Thanks! I had that in mind when posting my answer, that is why I gave the reference in Italian showing the term and its meaning in its original language. :)
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Reference comments

44 mins
Reference:

dubrovačka "kara"

http://silvanaurbs.blog.hr/arhiva-2006-07.html

1568.
- utemeljen organ petorice za poslove 'pomorskog osiguranja', ordo super assicuratoribus, jedan od prvih u svijetu, a sigurno prvi na mediteranu.

- u dubrovačkom brodogradilištu sagrađen jedrenjak nosivosti 1100 kara (1 kara=2/3 današnje brodske tone).

1580. - 1600.

u ovom razdoblju povećan je broj trgovačkih brodova veće nosivosti. republika posjeduje između 170 i 200 brodova (57 karaka, 72 galeona i 32 nave (podaci iz 1584.), koji jedre po svim morima svijeta uz mnoštvo manjih za obalnu plovidbu.
podaci govore o ukupnoj nosivosti od 36 tisuća 'kara' (kola); 5 tisuća pomoraca; čiste dobiti brodovlasnicima koja varira između 180 i 200 tisuća dukata godišnje. to je ujedno najveći opseg trgovačke moranarice.

.... it says here that the total displacement of dubrovnik fleet was 36000 "kara" (carts) ... and they mention that " 1 kara" is 2/3 of a modern ton...

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Note added at 51 mins (2010-05-06 06:32:19 GMT)
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http://www.shipmodelling.com/hrvatski/html/povijest.htm

Dubrovačka trgovačka mornarica 1599. imala je 23720 kara nosivosti (kar je mjera za brodsku, nosivost, dosta veća od današnje tone).

.... on the other hand this source speaks of 23720 "kars", claiming that kar is pretty above the ton....
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Darko Kolega : zato što je oko 2000 l, pa je iznad tone; nosivosti 1100 kara (koji je onda rod? m/f?)-> dubrovački kar??; glavno da se okriće na gradelama, pa nek' se zove kako god hoće; mislite na rošpu? ili osti? rošpa je ona najružnija-najbrodetskija neman....
14 mins
astija, i to me pita dalmoš, eheheh... pa zna se da svaka vala ima svoj rod, a o nazivima riba da ne pričam; ili ostija? ili oštija? nikad dobro ne čujem kad odem na more :)
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