| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Quotes in a thesis Thread poster: sparrow99
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sparrow99
France
Local time: 16:08
French to English
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Hello,
I am not sure whether I should translate into French (in a thesis in French) a quote which is originally in English. Does anyone know? Should I suggest a translation and leave the original quote between brackets?
Thanks for any help.
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Translation in the text, original version in the footnotes. And you must state whose translation it is (whether yours or someone else's).
| | | | Ivan Fosin 
United Kingdom
Member (2021)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Possibilities | Dec 11, 2012 |
Well, all the options are possible:
1. You can translate it without even quoting the original (then you shoud write a note somewhere that it is your own or someone else's translation and give the source)
2. You can leave the original without translating it (worst option in my opinion)
3. You can translate it in the text and put the original in the footnotes, I've also seen original version in the text and translation in the footnotes, but I think it would bother your reader and... See more Well, all the options are possible:
1. You can translate it without even quoting the original (then you shoud write a note somewhere that it is your own or someone else's translation and give the source)
2. You can leave the original without translating it (worst option in my opinion)
3. You can translate it in the text and put the original in the footnotes, I've also seen original version in the text and translation in the footnotes, but I think it would bother your reader and make your text more difficult to read.
I hope this helps,
Ivan ▲ Collapse
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I must strongly disagree - what you're suggesting isn't appropriate. This is a thesis, not a simple translation. Work must be done in a careful and exact way. And sources *must* be traceable.
While I do agree with you that one can decide to put the ST in the text and give the translation in the footnotes (it would be a rather awkward choice, but let's skip that), this is not the way things are done in the academic production.
Exception allowed, of course: cases where t... See more I must strongly disagree - what you're suggesting isn't appropriate. This is a thesis, not a simple translation. Work must be done in a careful and exact way. And sources *must* be traceable.
While I do agree with you that one can decide to put the ST in the text and give the translation in the footnotes (it would be a rather awkward choice, but let's skip that), this is not the way things are done in the academic production.
Exception allowed, of course: cases where the ST is more important than its translation (e.g. quotes with specific phonosymbolic characteristics etc.), and/or cases where one is absolutely positive that everyone else will be able to immediately understand the quote in a foreign language.
Most of all, I find it hard to understand your option #1, translating without even quoting the original: what is that supposed to mean? How's the reader supposed to check what you're saying? What if you' re just inventing or summarizing, what if your translation is simply wrong?
Honestly, this doesn't make any sense to me, and I'm an academic researcher : ( ▲ Collapse
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Ivan Fosin
United Kingdom
Member (2021)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Hello Juliette,
I didn't say that he shouldn't quote the bibliography. If he does quote it (which is a must of course) everyone can check the original text if necessary (even if he translates it himself, the problem is if they don't speak that other language, but we're talking about English here; in that concrete case if they don't speak the language, there's no way to evaluate his translation even if he quotes the original text in his thesis - can you see the paradox?).
Anot... See more Hello Juliette,
I didn't say that he shouldn't quote the bibliography. If he does quote it (which is a must of course) everyone can check the original text if necessary (even if he translates it himself, the problem is if they don't speak that other language, but we're talking about English here; in that concrete case if they don't speak the language, there's no way to evaluate his translation even if he quotes the original text in his thesis - can you see the paradox?).
Another situation, for example if the translation is already published in France why wouldn't he simply quote it as the source without quoting unnecessarily the original (it seems a little bit ironic that we're dicussing that on Proz)!? Of course, I suppose that's not the case, but there's my actual situation: I'm writing my Master thesis in Polish language. I translated myself many quotations from Croatian into Polish from the obvious reason - there weren't published translations of those works in Poland. Since I live in Croatia and everyone speaks Croatian if they have a doubt about my "inventing or summarizing", they can easily access to the respective works/thesis/books. Ok, someone who lives in Poland couldn't check it so easily, but I suppose I'm not that important so that someone will actually read it
Just joking, you're right to demand precision in the scientific work, but I just thought it would be more practical to omit it, especially if the quotations are repetitives, it can really bother his reader while reading. I'm always against too many footnotes.
I don't know if you get my point of view, but I understand what you're saying, that's why I tried to give him other options ▲ Collapse
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When I was doing my PhD thesis, we followed a style book, in my case the MLA. Things have got more complicated on some fronts now with source identification, with the advent of electronic sources, but this matter should be included in the corresponding style rules that the thesis supervisor should give/have pointed you to.
| | | | | Still don't get it, sorry : ( | Dec 12, 2012 |
Ivan Fosin wrote:
Hello Juliette,
I didn't say that he shouldn't quote the bibliography.
One doesn't *quote* the bibliography, one *cites* the bibliography. Here we're talking about *quotes*.
If he does quote it (which is a must of course) everyone can check the original text if necessary
Ok, let me get this straight. In a scientific work, everything must be verifiable. Otherwise we're not talking of scientific work, but of creative work.
(even if he translates it himself, the problem is if they don't speak that other language, but we're talking about English here; in that concrete case if they don't speak the language, there's no way to evaluate his translation even if he quotes the original text in his thesis - can you see the paradox?).
No paradox at all. People who can understand the foreign language will be able to check the accuracy. That's the exact point of the whole thing. In any case, the author is giving *everyone* a chance to check his statements, which is what a scientific work is supposed to do.
Another situation, for example if the translation is already published in France why wouldn't he simply quote it as the source without quoting unnecessarily the original
You just cannot quote a *translation* as a *source*, without even referring to the original text. Sources are sources, and translations are translations OF the sources. A totally different case is the decision to adopt a specific edition as a source, but this choice must be stated and justified. And it is only acceptable for certain categories of texts.
I'm writing my Master thesis in Polish language. I translated myself many quotations from Croatian into Polish from the obvious reason - there weren't published translations of those works in Poland. Since I live in Croatia and everyone speaks Croatian if they have a doubt about my "inventing or summarizing", they can easily access to the respective works/thesis/books.
This doesn't seem serious at all to me, it just looks as if you're making it hard for your readers to verify your claims. Plus, are you providing them with precise references to the original sources? If not, they will not be able to check. This is why one cites both the source and the translation in a scientific work.
Ok, someone who lives in Poland couldn't check it so easily
Now this is reasonable talk, at last...
but I suppose I'm not that important so that someone will actually read it
What I write actually gets read everywhere in and outside Europe, so maybe this is the difference. But one must be precise, no matter what one thinks about the importance of one's work.
Just joking, you're right to demand precision in the scientific work
I'm not asking for it, the rules ask for it : ((
but I just thought it would be more practical to omit it, especially if the quotations are repetitives, it can really bother his reader while reading. I'm always against too many footnotes.
Good luck with your master... I'm sorry to say that these do not look as the best premises to me. Maybe you just didn't explain things in the clearest of ways, which is what I sincerely hope.
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criteria must be decided with the supervisor, AND maintained all along.
Noni Gilbert wrote:
When I was doing my PhD thesis, we followed a style book, in my case the MLA. Things have got more complicated on some fronts now with source identification, with the advent of electronic sources, but this matter should be included in the corresponding style rules that the thesis supervisor should give/have pointed you to.
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| Agree with juliette_K | Dec 12, 2012 |
Good academic research provides the audience with a way to check and verify. So, the original source text needs to be acknowledged and existing translations need to be referenced.
All research fields have scholarly standards, often represented by style guides (MLA, APA, Chicago, Turabian, etc.). See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_guides
Style guides general... See more Good academic research provides the audience with a way to check and verify. So, the original source text needs to be acknowledged and existing translations need to be referenced.
All research fields have scholarly standards, often represented by style guides (MLA, APA, Chicago, Turabian, etc.). See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_guides
Style guides generally explain how translations are to be presented, just as they give guidelines for the styles of footnotes and the bibliography (or list of cited works).
However, it's always the case that readers need to know the original source so that the research can be correctly understood. It's the qualitative equivalent of replicating a scientific experiment in quantitative research. ▲ Collapse
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John Holland wrote:
It's the qualitative equivalent of replicating a scientific experiment in quantitative research.
Thanks for putting it so clearly and nicely, John.
| | | | Ivan Fosin
United Kingdom
Member (2021)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Ok, let me get this straight. In a scientific work, everything must be verifiable. Otherwise we're not talking of scientific work, but of creative work.
But if he *cites* the source, IT IS verifiable, who says it has to be verifiable directly? That's what I don't understand. I saw many works where the translation was presented without the original text, but with the direct reference to the original (title and page)
You just cannot quote a *translation* as a *source*, without even referring to the original text. Sources are sources, and translations are translations OF the sources. A totally different case is the decision to adopt a specific edition as a source, but this choice must be stated and justified. And it is only acceptable for certain categories of texts.
I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree on that. Translation is a valid source for people who don't speak foreign language. Or should we all learn all the languages we don't understand to verify the original (if someone does speak the language and if he's interested in checking the original, he can do it and if he believes that the quoted translation is a crap he can additionally write a review)? Maybe translator invented something, so let's go and verify everything. Are you saying that translations are worthless and unreliable?
This doesn't seem serious at all to me, it just looks as if you're making it hard for your readers to verify your claims. Plus, are you providing them with precise references to the original sources? If not, they will not be able to check. This is why one cites both the source and the translation in a scientific work.
Yes, I am providing them with precise references always citing the exact page where they can find it. They are able to check it in every moment. I'm not cheating, I'm not inventing anything, everything in my work is legitime, that's why I don't understand your pressure to do something that seems optional to me and what can certainly make someone's work difficult, unpleasent and confusing to read.
What I write actually gets read everywhere in and outside Europe, so maybe this is the difference. But one must be precise, no matter what one thinks about the importance of one's work.
I AM precise. I'm just not quoting the original. I always cite the source page. That's all. I'm not cheating. I'm pragmatic and I concluded it would be useless to quote dozen, hundred of sentences that ARE verifiables if someone has a doubt.
Good luck with your master... I'm sorry to say that these do not look as the best premises to me. Maybe you just didn't explain things in the clearest of ways, which is what I sincerely hope.
Well, my mentor didn't tell me that I was doing something wrong with those quotes, so everything's just fine. Maybe I didn't manage to explain well what I think and maybe I'm wrong, but maybe there are indeed various possibilities in writing a scientific work and not only one that you propose. And for the last time, I want to emphasize the fact that we should always cite the source - author, title, page. That means the source is ALWAYS traceable, and your will to insert the original text is in my opinion optional, not prescriptive as you're suggesting. It depends on your thesis' aim and on the intended public you're writing for.
| | | | sparrow99
France
Local time: 16:08
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for your answers everybody. I think (from what I have found on other academic websites as well) that I must provide a translation, stating that I translated the quote myself, then leave the original quote in English in a footnote (or even in the body of the text if it's a short quote).
You've been very helpful!
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Here's how I'd approach it:
1) Follow the guidelines of your university.
2) Follow the indications of the style guide relevant to your field.
3) In case of doubt, ask an authority (i.e., a professor, an official blog for the style guide, etc.).
4) If that does not definitively resolve the issue, opt to include more information (i.e., a copy of the original text in a footnote, etc.) rather than less, since that will help researchers who want to ... See more Here's how I'd approach it:
1) Follow the guidelines of your university.
2) Follow the indications of the style guide relevant to your field.
3) In case of doubt, ask an authority (i.e., a professor, an official blog for the style guide, etc.).
4) If that does not definitively resolve the issue, opt to include more information (i.e., a copy of the original text in a footnote, etc.) rather than less, since that will help researchers who want to use your work later.
That's my point of view, in any case. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Yes, absolutely | Dec 12, 2012 |
Ivan Fosin wrote:
Or should we all learn all the languages we don't understand to verify the original?
Oh yes, *absolutely*. If you aren't capable of judging the original source by yourself, you're definitely better off studying something else. No one's obliged to study a subject for which one is not competent. Quite the contrary, actually. The worst research is the one that relies on previous work without the due verification. That kind of research isn't worth a penny. Sooner or later, someone who's competent enough is going to show up and say "Hey, this is junk". It happens very frequently. We're not at the age of auctoritas anymore.
I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but you don't seem to have an accurate picture about scientific research and its criteria. This kind of knowledge is probably not required from you at the moment (at least if your teacher's happy with what you're doing...), but it certainly will be, should you decide to go ahead with your studies.
EDIT: I'm talking about sources which are used as a basis for research, of course. If you 're just marginally quoting an opinion written in Dutch, you're not obliged to speak Dutch.
If you're quoting a source and using it as a basis to draw conclusions from, the you must speak Dutch or change subject.
[Modifié le 2012-12-12 16:32 GMT]
| | | | Ivan Fosin
United Kingdom
Member (2021)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Someday you'll be the greatest polyglot in the world | Dec 12, 2012 |
So, if I understand well, you wouldn't refer to the book translated into Italian (your mother tongue) if you didn't know Dutch. Even if the book is a great material for your work. Or you would run to learn Dutch immediately. I expect you to be what I wrote in my heading.
I don't know exactly from where you have deduced that someone is incompetent if he finds a great manual about the topic he's intrested in, but he doesn't speak the language in which it was originally written.
You for... See more So, if I understand well, you wouldn't refer to the book translated into Italian (your mother tongue) if you didn't know Dutch. Even if the book is a great material for your work. Or you would run to learn Dutch immediately. I expect you to be what I wrote in my heading.
I don't know exactly from where you have deduced that someone is incompetent if he finds a great manual about the topic he's intrested in, but he doesn't speak the language in which it was originally written.
You forget that for most people language per se is not their main research interest, but only a tool helping them to understand the topic. Of course, if you're studying German literature at the academic level you should have a satisfactory knowledge of German language, but it seems obvious to me and we agree on that. But should some naval architect know German to read translated book in his mother tongue about his field of interest and then to be able to compare it with the original!?
@John - thank you!
[Uređeno u 2012-12-12 17:38 GMT]
[Uređeno u 2012-12-12 17:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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