| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Turn-key translations? Thread poster: writeaway
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| Target audience | Jul 19, 2009 |
Patricia Lane wrote:
In striving to have their bread buttered on both sides, me thinks Proz and Co. might well have blown it. Neither agencies nor professional translators are going to appreciate this little scheme...
I've lost count of the number of times I thought that some new development would spell the begining of the end, starting all the way back with WWA, and quite possibly before that.
I think the penny has finally dropped. I'm not part of Henry's target audience. None of this crap is meant for me. I am going to try to rise above it
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 15:37
French to English
+ ...
ViktoriaG wrote: PRen wrote:
According to "About ProZ.com turn-key translation", "The prices are fixed, so there is no negotiation. Clients pay in advance and payment is guaranteed by ProZ.com -- it is not even necessary to invoice. The job can be reviewed in its entirety before acceptance, and payment is made shortly after completion."
WTF?!? 
I know, Viktoria, I know - appalling, isn't it?
| | | | Anne-Marie Grant (X) 
Local time: 19:37
French to English
+ ...
| Turncoat Translations | Jul 19, 2009 |
'We've got it all sewn up'
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 13:37
German to English
Charlie Bavington wrote:In fairness, I should say I had no issue or problem with this particular agency producing an invoice for me, and the whole process worked swimmingly.
But there's a difference between *producing* an invoice and *issuing* an invoice. No matter how the invoice is produced at a technical level, it still has to be issued by the service provider, in this case the translator. If the translator is resident in Germany, for example, the invoice has to comply with all the German legal requirements for the content of invoices, including things like consecutive numbering (which can be by client). It has to be sent to the customer (in this case ProZ) **by post** (that's the law here in Germany!) and stored by the translator in paper form, or in an approved data storage system, for a minimum of 10 years.
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| Walk, then run! | Jul 19, 2009 |
RobinB wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:In fairness, I should say I had no issue or problem with this particular agency producing an invoice for me, and the whole process worked swimmingly. But there's a difference between *producing* an invoice and *issuing* an invoice. No matter how the invoice is produced at a technical level, it still has to be issued by the service provider, in this case the translator.
Indeedy, but to be honest, I think the discussion here is still at the level "is there an invoice or isn't there?" under this scheme, never mind the nitty-gritty of what is included and what isn't and whether it meets the needs of all tax authorities the world over.
Interestingly, it was a German agency that produced the invoices I was talking about. Perhaps they thought, with the, er, interesting requirements you have over there, it would be easier to generate them for us numbskulls used to less intrusive and demanding administration systems
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 13:37
German to English
| Going nowhere, fast | Jul 19, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: I think the discussion here is still at the level "is there an invoice or isn't there?" under this scheme
Sure, that's what I wrote in the first place. The question of *who* generates the invoice is not so important, what's really important is that there is an invoice in the first place. No invoice = tax evasion, IMHO.
| | | | | Invoicing and data retention in Germany | Jul 19, 2009 |
RobinB wrote:
It has to be sent to the customer (in this case ProZ) **by post** (that's the law here in Germany!) and stored by the translator in paper form, or in an approved data storage system, for a minimum of 10 years.
Uh... not quite right, Robin. Transmission of a PDF with an appropriate digital signature is also allowed. But damned few people do that, because it's a nuisance to get set up through Postbank or the Sparkassen, even though the procedure and equipment quickly pay off the investment.
As for the data storage issues, I must say I'm quite disappointed in the German DMS industry on the whole, which I was a part of for a while. With very few exceptions it has failed to provide reasonable solutions for very small businesses that are "revisionssicher" (compliant with auditing standards) - too busy chasing the big fish and cutting each others' throats. I still believe this can be a profitable niche market in one form or another- with an ASP model most likely. Paper archives really suck.
In any case, with regard to the turncoat translations, I suppose there may be serious grounds for concern with regard to legal invoicing, but since I have stayed far away from the online invoicing system here I wouldn't be able to make qualified specific comments on that topic. But given the diversity of legal requirements for invoicing and documenting income around the world, I do see serious potential for trouble if ProZ doesn't do its homework and newbies and the ignorant blithely assume that all will be well. A Scarlet P does not automatically confer the experience and wisdom to deal effectively with something as tricky as tax law.
| | | | | There is nothing new here (yet) | Jul 20, 2009 |
Hi all,
This thread was brought to my attention. It is a weekend now, I expect our staff member Jason, who has been working on this idea, will be able to post tomorrow.
I can provide some information in the meantime that I hope will alleviate some of the more serious concerns expressed here:
* There is no big plan here. This is a very minor feature, not even a feature yet, more of a brainstorm.
* This is nothing secretive going on. Some members... See more Hi all,
This thread was brought to my attention. It is a weekend now, I expect our staff member Jason, who has been working on this idea, will be able to post tomorrow.
I can provide some information in the meantime that I hope will alleviate some of the more serious concerns expressed here:
* There is no big plan here. This is a very minor feature, not even a feature yet, more of a brainstorm.
* This is nothing secretive going on. Some members of the P group have seen some potential in the idea and have joined Jason in brainstorming and experimenting. Unless Jason already has enough people in his ad hoc group, I imagine anyone here who sees potential and wants to join in the effort of fleshing out this idea will be welcomed to the group and given access to all related information. (Whether they have a P or not.)
* There is no plan to limit participation in this feature to those with the 'P'. (That said, the P might be one criteria that an outsourcer using the system might choose to have the system make use of.)
* This service is intended for very small jobs, for example the type of project for which it may not even be worth making a job posting over. Some people have described this type of job as a hassle for translation companies, and it would seem that there may be an opportunity to make a positive out of a negative by providing a tool that would be useful to translation outsourcers, and at the same time provide an opportunity for translators to make contact with new outsourcers.
* It would be fair to assume that, as is the case with every other "matching system" at ProZ.com, what is being provided is a way for translation outsourcers and translators to meet. Outsourcer and translator would certainly have access to each other (unless either side opts out, I suppose) and, as usual, far from being prevented, working together directly in the future without going through ProZ.com would be encouraged. In other words, the envisioned system would be one more way for members to meet clients, and nothing about the system would make ProZ.com an agency. (ProZ.com serves translation companies and has no intention of ever becoming one.)
* As for the financial details, Jason has made clear in the thread on the topic that this is something which he has not even addressed (and won't unless the project moves forward). He and I discussed the matter of pricing, and since ProZ.com is not in the business of setting rates and rate policies, and has no plan to be, I agreed with his plan to start with something simple, as a placeholder, and address the matter seriously only if turns out that anyone would have any use for this service in the first place.
* My assumption would be that if there is in fact enough value here for the system to move forward (and with the system having been used by a grand total of two companies, amounting to something like 70 euros total, that is by no means clear at this point), then additional work will be done to arrive at a state where invoicing and payment will happen directly between outsourcer and translator (as always).
I hope this level of information will suffice for now, because going too much into additional details (and probably debate) at this point would probably be more of a distraction (for everyone) than a fruitful exercise. You can rest assured that if this thing starts to pick up, all of the issues raised here will get the full public attention that would be due. ▲ Collapse
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PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 15:37
French to English
+ ...
Henry D wrote:
Hi all,
This thread was brought to my attention. It is a weekend now, I expect our staff member Jason, who has been working on this idea, will be able to post tomorrow.
I can provide some information in the meantime that I hope will alleviate some of the more serious concerns expressed here:
* There is no big plan here. This is a very minor feature, not even a feature yet, more of a brainstorm.
* This is nothing secretive going on. Some members of the P group have seen some potential in the idea and have joined Jason in brainstorming and experimenting. Unless Jason already has enough people in his ad hoc group, I imagine anyone here who sees potential and wants to join in the effort of fleshing out this idea will be welcomed to the group and given access to all related information. (Whether they have a P or not.)
* There is no plan to limit participation in this feature to those with the 'P'. (That said, the P might be one criteria that an outsourcer using the system might choose to have the system make use of.)
* This service is intended for very small jobs, for example the type of project for which it may not even be worth making a job posting over. Some people have described this type of job as a hassle for translation companies, and it would seem that there may be an opportunity to make a positive out of a negative by providing a tool that would be useful to translation outsourcers, and at the same time provide an opportunity for translators to make contact with new outsourcers.
* It would be fair to assume that, as is the case with every other "matching system" at ProZ.com, what is being provided is a way for translation outsourcers and translators to meet. Outsourcer and translator would certainly have access to each other (unless either side opts out, I suppose) and, as usual, far from being prevented, working together directly in the future without going through ProZ.com would be encouraged. In other words, the envisioned system would be one more way for members to meet clients, and nothing about the system would make ProZ.com an agency. (ProZ.com serves translation companies and has no intention of ever becoming one.)
* As for the financial details, Jason has made clear in the thread on the topic that this is something which he has not even addressed (and won't unless the project moves forward). He and I discussed the matter of pricing, and since ProZ.com is not in the business of setting rates and rate policies, and has no plan to be, I agreed with his plan to start with something simple, as a placeholder, and address the matter seriously only if turns out that anyone would have any use for this service in the first place.
* My assumption would be that if there is in fact enough value here for the system to move forward (and with the system having been used by a grand total of two companies, amounting to something like 70 euros total, that is by no means clear at this point), then additional work will be done to arrive at a state where invoicing and payment will happen directly between outsourcer and translator (as always).
I hope this level of information will suffice for now, because going too much into additional details (and probably debate) at this point would probably be more of a distraction (for everyone) than a fruitful exercise. You can rest assured that if this thing starts to pick up, all of the issues raised here will get the full public attention that would be due.
"This is a very minor feature, not even a feature yet, more of a brainstorm." Really. The brainstorm accepted my text, charged me, sent it to a translator, sent me a translation, and (I'm assuming) paid for the translation.
Next star - bafflegab.
Next star - "the P might be one criteria that an outsourcer using the system might choose to have the system make use of" - I think I might have been the outsourcer. I think I might have used the system. I don't think I was offered a choice.
Next star - "This service is intended for very small jobs, for example the type of project for which it may not even be worth making a job posting over" - so if the job is too small to make a job posting over, why would one make a job posting.. arghhh.... Henry, you're not making sense here.
Next star - "what is being provided is a way for translation outsourcers and translators to meet. Outsourcer and translator would certainly have access to each other" - Huh? Er, I posted a text, a translator was assigned, and the first time I saw her name was when the translation was delivered. There was no prior opportunity to meet, or "have access".
Next star - " since ProZ.com is not in the business of setting rates" - correct me if I'm wrong, but did it not say in the FAQ that rates are not negotiable? I sure as heck did not negotiate a rate - I was told it cost 15.15 per word, and when the translation was delivered, I was informed that the translator was paid 10.10 per word.
Next star - "My assumption would be that if there is in fact enough value here for the system to move forward (and with the system having been used by a grand total of two companies, amounting to something like 70 euros total, that is by no means clear at this point)" Yeah, well, you offered the service, two companies took advantage of it, and whether it amounted to 70 euros or two million euros, you offered it, it's out there, and it looks kind of disingenuous for you to be backtracking now.
And folks, here's the big one - (star five) "ProZ.com serves translation companies and has no intention of ever becoming one" - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 01:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-07-20 01:52 GMT]
| | | | | Had to hear it from the... erm... duck's mouth | Jul 20, 2009 |
PRen wrote:
And folks, here's the big one - (star five) "ProZ.com serves translation companies and has no intention of ever becoming one" - if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck.
...and here I was, thinking the bit in bold would go on saying "and translators". Nope. ProZ's founder says ProZ serves translation companies. Period. Indeed, I hear quacking...
I would also like to explain my WTF earlier. Doesn't anybody find it strange that each time the community asked to ban job posts with ridiculous rates, we were told that ProZ will not get into the illegal practice of rate fixing? Isn't there a teeny weeny integrity problem here?
[Edited at 2009-07-20 02:09 GMT]
| | | | | No revelation here, ViktoriaG | Jul 20, 2009 |
ViktoriaG wrote:
...and here I was, thinking the bit in bold would go on saying "and translators". Nope. ProZ's founder says ProZ serves translation companies. Period. Indeed, I hear quacking...
Again, nothing new here. Translation companies have been using the site since the beginning and there has been a corporate membership option for about three years. You can see corporate members featured in the directory of translation companies: http://www.proz.com/translation-agencies
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 15:37
French to English
+ ...
... the brainstorm just accepted another job from me, and the money's already OUT of my wallet, so a translation is obviously forthcoming. BTW, I'm getting charged 15 cents a word and the translator is being offered 9.6 cents a word. What was that you were saying Henry?
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| Response to PRen | Jul 20, 2009 |
PRen wrote:
... the brainstorm just accepted another job from me, and the money's already OUT of my wallet, so a translation is obviously forthcoming. BTW, I'm getting charged 15 cents a word and the translator is being offered 9.6 cents a word. What was that you were saying Henry?
That is how new things are developed on the web, PRen. You put things out there and then adapt.
As for rates, I have already commented.
By the way, congratulations on becoming the leading user of turnkey translations. How do you find it? Any potential value in it for you personally?
| | | | | Virtual translation by virtual translators? | Jul 20, 2009 |
Henry D wrote:
That is how new things are developed on the web...
Well, when the things developed on the web are simply free applications, I agree with you that this is how things are usually done. However, the turnkey job system is not a mere application, and it has implications way beyond what is normally developed on the Web. We are talking professional services, payment processing, rate fixing, etc., and we are also talking about taking a cut on people's work (who are already paying for membership) all the while denying the intention to become a translation broker.
Behind every turnkey job, there is a translator, a client and what ProZ has been calling a venue. Sorry if I don't agree with you here, but things that have implications as far-reaching as this turnkey system are usually not developed and implemented just like that, without at least telling the people who are going to be potentially impacted by it in a clear and timely manner that it is in the works.
Implementing this new feature without even mentioning it is very reminiscent of what Big Pharma does with new medication--let's skip the costly clinical trials and instead use the entire population as lab rats. Hey, if they are stupid like we think they are, they will even pay to be part of it!
| | | | | Flippancy isn't exactly going to improve things | Jul 20, 2009 |
Henry D wrote: By the way, congratulations on becoming the leading user of turnkey translations.
This is a serious matter. Or at least it is to the overwhelming majority of people in this thread.
[Edited at 2009-07-20 05:53 GMT]
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