Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6] >
When is it okay to pretend you've got a PhD?
Thread poster: Dylan J Hartmann
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:30
Spanish to English
+ ...
My mind is open, but it is not a sieve. Oct 11, 2018

Chris S wrote:

Robert Forstag wrote:
in a ferociously competitive market where acquiring and then leveraging meaningful credentials is of utmost importance?

Unless I see persuasive evidence to the contrary on that person’s profile or résumé, my default assumption is likely to be that the person in question either took the test (perhaps multiple times) and failed, or lacks sufficient confidence to even register for the exam.

(And yes, I know that there are some absolutely marvelous translators out there who are just poor test-takers....)


It could also be that these translators have no need for such credentials.

In the market I operate in, doing a good job is the answer, not pieces of paper.


First, I acknowledged this possibility in my previous post.

Secondly, and as I also made clear, I think it implausible that such an explanation applies to everyone that I described in my previous post.

Thirdly, and most important to the particular point that I made, I would think that most translators who prominently feature ATA membership in their profile would want to have “the piece of paper” this organization offers in their language combination(s), irrespective of their other credentials and achievements.


[Edited at 2018-10-11 19:51 GMT]


 
Dylan J Hartmann
Dylan J Hartmann  Identity Verified
Australia
Member (2014)
Thai to English
+ ...

MODERATOR
TOPIC STARTER
Ambiguous/Misleading Statement Oct 11, 2018

I suppose many of the respondents who agree with pretending to have a PhD must think that we can call ourselves a specialist in anything, even though it might just be from one class, one semester, or a couple of years, even though there weren't any exams, even though there weren't any pieces of paper awarded for it.

Ask any PhD recipient, the hardest part was not those first few years, it was finishing the thesis.

Going back to my OP, it was about misleading clients wit
... See more
I suppose many of the respondents who agree with pretending to have a PhD must think that we can call ourselves a specialist in anything, even though it might just be from one class, one semester, or a couple of years, even though there weren't any exams, even though there weren't any pieces of paper awarded for it.

Ask any PhD recipient, the hardest part was not those first few years, it was finishing the thesis.

Going back to my OP, it was about misleading clients with an ambiguous statement “at PhD level”.

We should ask those who’ve passed thesis review/examination whether a couple of years research has the same legitimacy as having finished it.

[Edited at 2018-10-14 02:04 GMT]
Collapse


Robert Forstag
 
Fiona Grace Peterson
Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 02:30
Italian to English
Failed? Oct 12, 2018

Dylan Jan Hartmann wrote:

I suppose many of the respondents who agree with pretending to have a PhD must think I should call myself a tactical nuclear weapons specialist, even though it was just one class


No, because you didn't get a a degree or a masters in "tactical nuclear weaponry".

Dylan Jan Hartmann wrote:

A PhD level failure, more like it.


Pretty presumptuous and arrogant to assume they failed the PhD - as I said in my previous post there are MANY reasons for not completing the course, non of which have to do with incompetence.


Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Michele Fauble
Arabic & More
Viviane Marx
Rita Pang
 
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 01:30
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Please allow me to divert a little bit... Oct 12, 2018

What's the problem? I suppose there are a number of factors a client needs to consider in the selection of a translator for a particular job, but I don’t think that having a PhD or even a Master will be in the top of their list…

Michele Fauble
Tom in London
Viviane Marx
Jorge Payan
Gareth Callagy
 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:30
French to English
Not a good idea Oct 12, 2018

You can have a PhD in a particular discipline that may or may not be a language and be a good or a bad translator, or anything in between. I'll not develop that point further.

Is it okay to pretend you've got a PhD?
The short answer, in my opinion, is "no, it is not okay". Why? Because it diminishes the relevance of those who do hold a PhD. I'm not saying that those without a PhD are not as intelligent as those with; that is not the question. Those who do have a PhD have demo
... See more
You can have a PhD in a particular discipline that may or may not be a language and be a good or a bad translator, or anything in between. I'll not develop that point further.

Is it okay to pretend you've got a PhD?
The short answer, in my opinion, is "no, it is not okay". Why? Because it diminishes the relevance of those who do hold a PhD. I'm not saying that those without a PhD are not as intelligent as those with; that is not the question. Those who do have a PhD have demonstrated specific skills in their field, not just in terms of knowledge, but in tons of other ways. Indeed, in some fields, holding a PhD will convince clients that you have the necessary knowledge and skills to undertake a particular translation. If you pretend to have a PhD, you are making a false claim that can be checked fairly easily by those who wish to do so. Also, if it is relevant, then as it is a general piece of original research work, if you are relying on a particular body of knowledge to get specific translation jobs, you run the risk of coming across someone who is a genuine specialist and will smell a rat.

My main problems with someone holding themselves out to have a particular qualification that they do not hold is that they are:
- showing lack of respect for those who do have a PhD
- lying to their clients and potential clients
- conveying a deceitful image of translators generally

There is no wonder that agencies require people to download copies of the qualifications and so on. It is because of how easy it is to lie, also bearing in mind that people can download false certificates, etc.

In some countries, in certain circumstances, holding oneself out to be something one is not and/or using a false certificate in order to support the claim, can amount to a criminal offence, particularly where it is done for financial gain.
Collapse


Daryo
Dylan J Hartmann
Rita Pang
 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
IMO Oct 12, 2018

I agree with Teresa and Nikky.

First, there're VERY different requirement for PhD in different countries and even unis.
Second, if what one said is TRUE (on demand one can provide documentary evidence from the uni), then it's no "pretending".
Third, even related Doctor/PhD titles are not so important in the modern translation market, mostly because of significantly higher requirements/associations, and so on.

So, where's the implied harm? Waiting for another
... See more
I agree with Teresa and Nikky.

First, there're VERY different requirement for PhD in different countries and even unis.
Second, if what one said is TRUE (on demand one can provide documentary evidence from the uni), then it's no "pretending".
Third, even related Doctor/PhD titles are not so important in the modern translation market, mostly because of significantly higher requirements/associations, and so on.

So, where's the implied harm? Waiting for another topic like "When it's ok to pretend to be a translator without at least MA in translation?"
Collapse


 
Vanda Nissen
Vanda Nissen  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 11:30
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
It could be misleading Oct 12, 2018

@Dylan, I agree that it could be misleading, but since they have not used the actual word ''awarded'', we can't really say that they are pretending in having it. Btw, you can't really say if the first year was harder than the last year, or vice versa, it really depends on a person, field (science vs humanities), University, supervisor etc.

Kaspars Melkis
Rita Pang
Dylan J Hartmann
 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 02:30
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
SEO (Search Engine Optimization) Oct 14, 2018

The statement is probably misleading. It may get hits in searches looking for actual PhDs, where the person is hoping to be considered for the job anyway.

Soon after I joined this site, I innocently stated on my profile that although I was not a Danish State Authorized Translator, I could refer to colleagues who were. I actually got a lot of enquiries about work requiring a stamp, which only State Authorized translators could give.

In fact I could take on the work in m
... See more
The statement is probably misleading. It may get hits in searches looking for actual PhDs, where the person is hoping to be considered for the job anyway.

Soon after I joined this site, I innocently stated on my profile that although I was not a Danish State Authorized Translator, I could refer to colleagues who were. I actually got a lot of enquiries about work requiring a stamp, which only State Authorized translators could give.

In fact I could take on the work in many cases, but I could not stamp it, and I very soon removed the reference from my profile.

I did go on collecting 'pieces of paper', but any I mention are my own, and I am entitled to them.
Collapse


Rita Pang
Dylan J Hartmann
 
Yehezkel Tenenboim
Yehezkel Tenenboim  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:30
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Devil's advocate Oct 16, 2018

Nikki Scott-Despaigne wrote:

My main problems with someone holding themselves out to have a particular qualification that they do not hold is that they are:
- showing lack of respect for those who do have a PhD
- lying to their clients and potential clients
- conveying a deceitful image of translators generally


I'd like to play the devil's advocate and assert that claiming ANYTHING about yourself is fair game.

- 'Respect' is silly. I claim: PhD holders who take offence at fake PhD-claimers should resolve their issues internally. If you did a PhD you know your value and what this PhD gave you and how you can utilise it. No need to look sideways and check what other candidates are saying that they did and can.

(I once sat at a PhD defense. The student got best mark (summa cum laude). Some students were dismayed, thought that the former didn't deserve a best mark, and said that this kind of thing hurts their own chances of getting a job... I call this silliness).

- Lying is not something to be proud of, but what if your field is fiercely competitive, you're positive that you were born to do this, but you verifiably can't get your foot in the door without lying a little? (Consider a qualification that is difficult to check or prove: native speaker. Sure, I'm a native speaker. If I didn't tell you this, dear client, you wouldn't take me. I think that's not fair, because I consider myself a bona fide Swahili scholar and speak it better than anyone in Kenya. So why on earth shouldn't I say that I'm a native? I also watched thousands of electronics videos on YouTube and consider myself more of an expert than someone with a PhD in electronics. That's why I write "PhD in electronics" in my resume. Why should I suffer because of silly qualifications, certificates and documents that mean nothing?)

- 'Conveying a deceitful image of translators generally'. Well, many professions have a deceitful image: taxi drivers, car mechanics. Still people use their services all the time. No choice. Maybe translation is destined to become the same. At any rate, I need to put food on the table and prefer to be a lying translator than an honest McDonald's worker. Makes sense?

[Edited at 2018-10-16 10:25 GMT]


Jorge Payan
 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule
Dylan J Hartmann
Dylan J Hartmann  Identity Verified
Australia
Member (2014)
Thai to English
+ ...

MODERATOR
TOPIC STARTER
Accusations! Oct 16, 2018

DZiW wrote:

Why, I'm also not sure myself I can re-pass successfully all those subject once again-


I’ve mentioned a couple of times already that they gained entry into PhD after Bachelors with 1 year honours. Not Masters, MA or anything.

Why you insist on trying to compare this with my own VERIFIABLE credentials, I don’t understand.

I’ve reported the person in question to the university, so will let the university deal with this issue of “fake valor”.

You may be right, there may be nothing wrong. I think many have made great points on either side of the argument, will let the university decide!


 
Rita Pang
Rita Pang  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:30
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...

Moderator of this forum
SEO Oct 16, 2018

I find this to be a questionable form of marketing yourself. I find it rather misleading, especially on the basis of SEO. As someone has mentioned earlier, her mention of being able to refer clients to state authorized translators actually brought her many inquiries about her offering state authorized translations herself. But that was not true - she only knew of people who could perform that service at the time.

People have the tendency to skimp through things when they read. Then
... See more
I find this to be a questionable form of marketing yourself. I find it rather misleading, especially on the basis of SEO. As someone has mentioned earlier, her mention of being able to refer clients to state authorized translators actually brought her many inquiries about her offering state authorized translations herself. But that was not true - she only knew of people who could perform that service at the time.

People have the tendency to skimp through things when they read. Then there's keyword search which tends to just pick up words like these without necessarily analyzing the context. For me (and myself personally), reading a line like "xxx at MA/PhD level" would be perceived as having completed that course or program at this particular level, while no one even knows if that course or program has actually been completed. What if only 2 hours of study were completed towards that particular course? Should I, the client, understand that as you having full understanding of the curriculum completed?

While one may say that it's all open to interpretation, if you have not completed, or have completed, a particular course of study, just write it down and tell the tale as it is. Why lead someone to think otherwise?
Collapse


Dylan J Hartmann
Christine Andersen
 
Rita Pang
Rita Pang  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:30
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...

Moderator of this forum
... Oct 16, 2018

David GAY wrote:

Lincoln Hui wrote:

David GAY wrote:

A PhD in France is almost worthless and lots of doctors are unemployed.
In Germany, it's the opposite.
In the US, a MBA is a diploma that should theoretically offer some value.
In Germany, MBA means Mediocre But Arrogant.
If you hold a MBA or a PhD, isn't it a waste to be on Proz? It just shows that the investment wasn't worth it.
A PhD is an expert, but only in a very narrow field. So his/her knowledge will only be useful in a very limited number of cases (whenever the translation relates to this narrow knowledge).
Is he going to receive a better rate because he's an expert? The answer is no. He'll have to give away his knowledge for peanuts. Not worth it. If you have invested 200 000 USD in a MBA, it's a real waste to be paid less than 30 USD/per hour.




[Modifié le 2018-10-11 13:54 GMT]

Given that associate professorships in the US start in the region of 45k USD/yr and even tenure professors often don't make six figures, no, it's not a waste to be on ProZ.

you can't compare a gross income with a net income. An employee receives some benefits (health coverage etc). A freelancer gets nothing. 45 k USD/yr is not too bad for a start. I bet that most of the translators here on Proz don't even have this level of income.



....but you also can't compare the fact that people don't just GET a PhD. It takes years. In Europe from what I understand it's usually 5 years for a BA + MA in the arts/literature industry. The courses at PhD level may be a certain number of years, but as we all know many people get stuck at the thesis part. A freelancer could be coming straight out of university or a 2-year college diploma and start working right away. If they happen to specialize in a very desirable field they could be making this 45k amount you're talking about very quickly. This would literally be someone in their early 20s. A PhD? Most people don't get that degree before their 30s. By the time they have the credentials to teach, TAs sometimes make even less than 40k a year and they are already in their mid or even late 30s, while someone who started that first job 10 years earlier could have advanced into a managerial position by now.

Long story short, NO, it's not a waste of time to be on Proz. You are also assuming that having a steady FT/PT job gives benefits. Not at all. There are parts of the world, in Asia for example, where many highly qualified teachers get only 10 days of annual vacation and are hired on contract, which automatically exempts their employer in offering health/dental benefits of any sort.


 
Rita Pang
Rita Pang  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 21:30
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...

Moderator of this forum
Misunderstanding Oct 16, 2018

Dylan Jan Hartmann wrote:

Why you insist on trying to compare this with my own VERIFIABLE credentials, I don’t understand.



To be frank, probably just a case of misunderstanding. When I first read your initial post, Dylan, I also thought you are referring to your own credentials for some strange reason. Gave it 5 minutes, came back, continued reading the rest of the thread and it was clear that you are speaking about someone else who approached you.


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
to PhD or not to real PhD Oct 16, 2018

Dylan, if the question were about a person *falsely* pretending to have a PhD, distorting the translation market, then I would agree with you, but I still cannot get (1) where a lie exactly is and (2) what makes the big difference–why it must be so important for you or other translators. Usually full professors are so busy researching, mentoring, and publishing very specific papers, that they just have almost no time for part-time translation. So far, there're rather few n... See more
Dylan, if the question were about a person *falsely* pretending to have a PhD, distorting the translation market, then I would agree with you, but I still cannot get (1) where a lie exactly is and (2) what makes the big difference–why it must be so important for you or other translators. Usually full professors are so busy researching, mentoring, and publishing very specific papers, that they just have almost no time for part-time translation. So far, there're rather few not stale PhD holders in the translation field, let alone very narrow specialization. Furthermore, even clients far from the English language and linguistics can read between the lines: if they do care, they will ask it directly, verifying credentials. Of course, I try to tell people from problems, checking possible cause-effect relations, yet still...

Shortly, I think you're overdoing this "just course" (against an ephemeral absent black cat in a dark room) a bit:
1) a person does NOT claim that he has got a PhD–thus he said no lies;
2) if he really did one-two-three-four-five-six years in a PhD course, the uni WILL confirm it–if not, it doesn't change a thing; so what?
* And how about not full-time, but online PhD courses?)

You're talking so much about "pretending PhD" and it seems very important at least for you, yet I just can't get your picture, alas. As for your "PhD failure" remark, there're so many reasons to "fail", including not being eligible, not enrolling, failing at preliminary or final exams, or just not mentioning "at a PhD" level. By the way, as a mere MA educationist I saw no rationale for a doctoral course; however, I’d like to ask you:
Dylan, why haven't you applied to a PhD yourself, if it's so topical for you? You could also add the infamous "[studying / studied] at a PhD level" in a CV, why?


TY
Collapse


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

When is it okay to pretend you've got a PhD?







Trados Studio 2022 Freelance
The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.

Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.

More info »
TM-Town
Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business

Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.

More info »